The city has conditionally approved an application to subdivide a huge parcel of land along Salmon Bay, clearing the way for plans to build office buildings along the Ballard waterfront. The property is located at 5301 Shilshole Ave., just south of the old Yankee Diner, and spans nearly 11 acres. The plan is to subdivide two lots into eight. Here’s a Google Map of the site:
The Seattle Daily Journal of Commerce reports that the owner of the land, C.D. Stimson Co., has no immediate plans to build on the site but ultimately aims to build five 100,000-square-foot office buildings on the land. The owner filed the application a few days before new legislation took effect that limits the size of office uses in industrial zoned areas to 25,000 square feet. You can read more details in the land use ruling (.pdf). (Thanks newsie for the tip!)
oh boy, now that should be interesting…there already isn't enough parking there during the work day.
Has anyone heard when they are going to start construction of the hotel in front of Yankee Diner?
The owner also has a house/studio on top of the building next to this parking lot in reference.
EDIT: now that I've read the proposal I see that the plan would take all the property and make it into new business buildings (5 total) tearing down the existing structures. Now that makes more since however that's interesting considering one of Ballard's biggest companies currently occupies most of the buildings that would be demolished.
Great. Can we just get it over with it already and tear down Ballard completely so we can turn it into Bellevue Square right away? Please, let there be a Cheesecake Factory!
Old ballard is dirty. We need a mall so new ballard has a place to drop off thier screaming snot nosed brood.
What a waste.
Noooooo!
Our population density is already too high. Our infrastructure is insufficient to support all the condos, much less all the commercial traffic this development would bring.
What about a nice park instead?
Yes, we need a park to frolic in, not offices to work in!
Pa-leez. This has as much chance of being built right now as WAMU suddenly springing back into existence and ordering a hundred new 787s from Boeing for donation to The Gates Foundation who in turn pass them on the Seattle Public Schools. This guy is just covering his ass-ets.
Yeah baby! Is that the one with the groovy penthouse on top?
So half a million square feet of buildings fed by a two lane road?
Seattle City planning at its' finest. Maybe Paul Allen will buy it so we the people can furnish this development with a streetcar to nowhere.
This picture isn't very clear. Are they talking about the empty space between Trident and Yankee Diner? Otherwise, it looks like they're building over Trident and the sand and gravel place.
this is a great idea. that whole area is a derelict eyesore full of people car camping.
where do you think all those condo-buyers will work? what's wrong with more office space that is, you know, close to where people actually live?
busdrivermike, that road is fine, because you will be transporting these people to work. they won't need cars–that is the beauty.
from an 'environmental impact' side I bet Trader Joe's creates more traffic during the course of a day than all these offices fully occupied ever would.
besides, isn't it just a couple of rich guys building out fake office space so they can have their waterfront penthouse suite on top?
I welcome the new construction. 5 office building equal more dollars spent in Ballard. And isnt that what this site promotes? “Please Buy in Ballard”
More workers walking to shops during lunch spending money in Ballard. More workers wanting to live in near work so buying houses and condos in Ballard. Driving the market back up in Ballard. Increasing the odds that other projects who might have trouble finding funding will do so by this boost. Thus removing the abandoned lots that have become a magnet for transients.
I am support of any idea that will drive that much revenue into the local economy .
Open the Land-Use pdf and you'll see the exact property they are talking about. You can compare it with the google pix. You sound more familiar with the area…is it Trident? Is it the sand and gravel?
Office space is evil, it's where people work. We should all be spending our days in Bergen Square playing hacky sack and complaining about The Man.
I don't see the problem with the subdivision or office proposal. That whole are is a wasteland – and the Yankee Diner is not an important part of the maritime heritage or identity of our neighborhood.
IN fact – it seems like a win-win. We get a redeveloped parcel, with more users, more customers for downtown ballard, and more opportunities for living and working locally.
Fremont's relationship with Adobe is a good example of how this can help, not hurt, a neighborhood center.
If they include some nice waterfront public space, that would be great.
I am glad someone has a vision for the future, but right now Ballard has a number of big projects going at a snail's pace.
I agree, let's make them give us public space to play hacky sack, even though it's private land.
Property = genocide!
Not sure of your actual point Stupid Hippie, but the formerly evil developers in Vancouver, BC discovered that the forced public spaces on private property actually increased the property values. Win, win.
the forced public space is a GREAT idea.
the problem is that too often this becomes a fancy corporate park fenced off from the public (think of that great park around Adobe adjacent to the burke gilman trail, or even worse, those bio-tech office buildings at the top of myrtle edwards park). I have never seen ANYONE use any of these 'private parks' and frankly they look kind of stupid next to the real public areas.
tear down these fences. allow these spaces to actually be used.
I know it's early on, but I hope this development becomes the first to be designed around Ballard's heritage. The development of Ballard is inevitable. Let's do all we can to ensure it’s design is unique to our neighborhood.
How can Shilshole Ave NW possibly accommodate the amount of vastly increased traffic that will result from a development of this size? It's already so bad that I started avoiding it on the way home in the afternoons and take an alternate route now.
He doesn't have a point. He just posts the same troll at least twice on every thread do see who bites.
All this shows is that the Ballard communtiy council or what every the board is called has no strategic view of itself as Ballard and of whatever development such a strategic view would auger. Again we're at the mercy of the city plannners and developers, as shows in the over buildng of condos without proper “neighborhood” orientation or design or long term transportation and access planning , the demonstrated inability to integrate the traditional marine and manufacturing industry, the demonstrated inability to develop a vibrant “local” retail economy fed by local residnets, the lack of intelligent integration of office development, the recognition of the traditional demographics of Ballard. Maybe we could take a lesson from the Phinnney Ridge Community Council. Who is Ballard and what should it be? Having lived here for over 60 years I just shake my head at the last 10 years. But now with all the density, we should be able to design the large village feel that everyone seems to want.
So a proposed office development should be able to contribute to the community in many ways, such public parking and access, adding waterfront trail spaces and pass-through bike ways, adding to our village environement. The difficulty is that it is being proposed on space that should be used for marine commercial activity. Maybe the design can accomodate such marine business.
There's no question that land is excellent development potential…and necessary at that. A nearly 500,000 sf vacant lot isn't good for anyone. What we need to build there is a mixed use development, of which office space would be a vital component. On a choice piece of land like that, there should be buildings that house human activity 24/7. Let's build neighborhoods in our neighborhoods…not just office buildings. And for those of you who only want to complain about traffic, don't sweat that right now. It'll get figured out. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Hockey/Ice Skating Rink!
One of best ideas I've heard yet!
How about a Denny's and a bowling alley? Or a big hole filled with ground water like the one on Market and 28th?
” the recognition of the traditional demographics of Ballard”
I agree, they left out space for the Indians.
Interesting, how Ballard has come full circle. C.D.Stimson company was one of the largest employers in Ballard from the 1890s to the 1950s, in its lumber mills. One of the reasons Ballard was a desirable place to live was because it had industry at its back door, within easy commuting distance by foot or bus or trolley. I'm all for bringing more jobs and less condos to Ballard! That said, I'm a bit worried about the traffic on Shilshole.
As for the homeless: I have a newspaper clipping and photo from 1905 complaining about the “tent city” on 14th and the “gypsies” living there. The more things change, the more they remain the same.
that ice skating/hockey rink idea is brilliant! I'm picturing youth leagues competing for the beaver cup!
this property really is pretty prime and I agree it needs to have a vibrant mixed use feel to it. maybe something a bit like Granville Island up in Vancouver, where they've integrated industrial uses with the retail.
as for the traffic in this area, it already sucks. race car ya-yas or not, things will only get worse. hopefully a dedicated bike path here will get more folks out of there car.
“A nearly 500,000 sf vacant lot isn't good for anyone.”
True enough, except it's not vacant. There are several viable (industrial) businesses and a non-upscale marina there. This is a place where people live and work. Half a million square feet of (probably) sterile office space? Has anyone ever been to Century City in L.A.? Clusters of office buildings make for a desolate and bleak landscape, albeit with manicured lawns.
The owner is just trying to maximize the value of his land, but it saddens me that in the United States sitting at a computer in an office and manipulating data is valued more than using your hands as well as your mind and actually making something tangible. We're losing our craftsmen and women to the shallow gratification of cheap mass-produced goods from overseas. When they're all gone, and there is no need of industrial space for them to work in, will we realize what we have lost? Will we care, or will the latest electronic shiny-shiny be all we really care about, never mind meaningful work?
That's exactly what I'm saying…
Doesn't make me sad to be rewarded for taking the hard classes and studying instead of drinking all night. Definitely not going to apologize to anybody for working in an office.
And given that all these blue collar workers are more than happy go to Wal-Mart and buy HDTVs and jet skis and sportswear made in Taiwan, what am I to do? Pass a paternalistic law telling them they may not buy those things?
The fact is the world turns, things change, and nostalgia is an illusion. Things were never as wonderful way back in the day as the storytellers want you to believe.
“but it saddens me that in the United States sitting at a computer in an office and manipulating data is valued more than using your hands as well as your mind and actually making something tangible. “
I agree! Real men live in caves, kill food with their bare hands and use fire for heat, not these modern things like 'electricity', 'horseless carriages' and 'telephonic devices'.
very well put.
People, we HAD a skating rink in Ballard on Shilshole and it is still there. it was closed in the 1980s BUT it is still there, the blue bulidng on the north side of Shilshole. The company in there was DanTrawl; can't remember what it is now. I think it would be great if it was turned back into a skating rink. Many, many kids learned to ice skate there. Kristi Lunde went to Nationals I think, skaing out of there. They used to have hockey, and curling there as well.
If they can find a way to incorporate the marina and make it look as un-Bellevue as possible I have no problem with this. But that doesn't look like the plan. And have they actually solidified the funding or are we going to be left with another empty and ugly dirt pit?
I'm not against change but there seems to be already too many unfinished (and ugly) projects in Ballard. Enough!!
RIP Sunset Bowl!
“Doesn't make me sad to be rewarded for taking the hard classes and studying instead of drinking all night. Definitely not going to apologize to anybody for working in an office.”
You make working a trade sound bad. People do it and YOU need it and no, there not all drinkers. We are all taught that if we don't go to school and get an MBA or some degree were nothing. Trades work is still alive and still very needed. If we kick too many out our city can't function properly. That is why its to bad that they are tearing this down. Office space doesn't need a water view but many industries do need to operate on water.
I will say that that I know more trades people who didn't go to college that make GOOD MONEY vs those who went to college. A piece of paper doesn't mean anything.
All I can say is that most office workers cannot hammer a nail, let alone repair their roof or snake a drain. We make your “I pay someone to do that” attitude possible. Feel free to get your white collar dirty, if you even know where to start. Being that I have friends in college, I know for a fact that college kids consume copious amounts of alcohol. More than me and my tradesman friends to say the least.
I am happily working in the trades and am rather offended by your generalizations about us being ignorant Walmart loving fools. Infact, the smartest people I know work the trades. My fellow workers and I despise big box style stores and do not go jet skiing on the weekend. Where were your shirts, suits, shoes and ties made? I doubt they were made here!
Perhaps this type of ignorant person exists elsewhere in Washington, just do not generalize. We live in the same city as you and are just as cultured. I apologize about having to wash my hands and bandage the occasional wound at the end of the day.
Do not come complaining to us when the HVAC system in your high rise breaks. You don't want us untouchables running around your office.
“most office workers cannot hammer a nail, let alone repair their roof or snake a drain”
Since most wives can't 'entertain' like Tera Patrick, should we all just hire professionals?
Elenchos,
Read “The Craftsman” by Richard Sennett: http://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-Prof-Richard-Se… . Interesting book on the nature of work. I'm not romanticizing industrial work (My family owned a factory; I worked there for years and am quite aware of the realities, good and bad), and I too went to school and earned the degrees and took the office job. But there is an essential “meaningfulness” that is missing from much of our time in the office environment.
I think it would be a great cutural and economic loss if industrial enterprise disappeared from our neighborhoods, our cities and possibly our country. It's good to have more employment opportunities nearby than just cubicle, retail or service work. Ballard is lucky to have a viable mix of industrial, residential, and commercial properties and I am loathe to see the balance shift significantly from what it is now (or really, what it was five years ago). What is driving the development? I have my opinion (hubris and greed), but others, I know, see a need for dramatic change. I'd rather see the neighborhood evolve organically, changing in response to need, rather than the landowners' desire for maximum return on investment. Silly, I know. All that really counts is the buck.
And do not make the mistake of dismissing blue-collar workers as hard-drinking, materialistic and shallow. That is as much an illusion as the nostalgic past you allude to. I know quite a few people who work with their hands yet have multiple college degrees, and a number of spendthrift drunks who work in offices. Generalizations, in general, are false. :-)
I am talking on an amateur scale, my friend.
“most office workers cannot hammer a nail, let alone repair their roof or snake a drain”
Most tradesmen can't write computer code, or design mobile phones, or design software to run the web, but you what, I don't have a hissy fit about it.
You've met my wife then….
Well who do you think is buying all that stuff at Wal-Mart? The data say it's tradesmen and factory workers. You think knowledge workers take linear algebra and French literature so they can shop at freaking Wal-Mart? It's the blue collars that made Wal-Mart what it is today.
It's blue collars who line up to buy the video games and cell phones and tickets to 3D movies that we create for them. They could buy handmade in USA wooden puppets to entertain their kids, but do they? No, they want Shrek, baby. And those who can do the math that makes Srhek possible are very well compensated for that work. It's honest work. Real, meaningful work. If the workers of America didn't think so they'd stop buying it.
Many college kids do drink instead of study, and that's one of the reasons that type aren't not good enough to get a job with us. I don't know where those guys end up, to tell the truth.
But look. You really have no right to complain about generalizing. I never said I didn't want tradesmen around. I only said I won't apologize for working in an office. Kind of a generalization to presume I'm in a suit in some office tower, or to presume that I don't know how to work with my hands. How do you think I paid for college, anyway?
I don't disagree with anything you say, except the part about there being anything lacking in knowledge work. Educated people who never get dirty also do vital, meaningful work too. We aren't exploiting anyone, and we aren't getting a free ride.
What I most strongly reject is any suggestion that those of us who are well paid for reading words on a screen and typing at a keyboard have the slightest reason to feel guilty.
It is not our fault that there are people who will do blue collar jobs for less money in other counties. The fact is, there are also people who will do white collar jobs for less money in other countries. We know that score too.
Did I knock on that skill set? NO. Way to attack unnecessarily. I appreciate their contribution, just as those people should appreciate the contributions by the trades.
By the way, I know tradesmen who can write code. I administrate web servers on the side.
“I know tradesmen who can write code.”
Wow. Well, I know a web designer who built his own house in Northern California, plumbing, wiring and all. I guess he didn't want to hear the whining from someone like you in his house.
Nothing lacking in knowledge work, of course. But much of what we do in offices these days is not knowledge work, it's data work. There is a difference.
And no reason to feel guilty for working in an office. But to displace viable industrial businesses with office space that will likely take years to fill, feels to me like a move in the wrong direction. Don't we have enough office space in Seattle as it is?
Do we, will we ever really NEED half a million square feet of office space there on Shilshole? Or does it just make good economic sense because you can cram many more high-earning, big-spending knowledge workers onto a given footprint than low-paid, hard-drinking laborers who need tool-swinging room?
It's all about the money. And we are all to “blame” (it started with the shift to “maximizing shareholder value” as the prime objective of business activity, back in the late '70s), but that is really another discussion for another forum.
Oh, did I tell you about my sibling, an office-bound executive who makes $500K+ a year in NYC but makes his own furniture, some of which he's sold to friends for thousand$?
Stereotypes work both ways my little friend.
Wow Bark More, way to make this into a competition.
No doubt by selling your services as a “Public Intellectual”.
“But much of what we do in offices these days is not knowledge work, it's data work. “
Uhhh, the data work has been sent to India my friend.
“Do we, will we ever really NEED half a million square feet of office space there on Shilshole?”
By 'we' you mean 'you' right?
“It's all about the money”
Ah ha, you're the guy I heard about! The one who works for nothing, refuses to sell his home for cash and demands all payments be made with beads.
So I looked at the land use application.
Two thirds of that parcel is parking lot. They want to break it into five pieces, and it says existing structures are to remain.
So they're going to replace that vast parking lot with five office buildings, and whatever is going on in the buildings there will I guess keep going on. Hammers swinging I suppose.
So what are we even arguing about? Nothing, I think.
I value the economic and visual diversity of Ballard, and think that displacing industry for office space will diminish the neighborhood. I'm just trying to explain why. No need to attack me.
Sorry for not falling in line with the property rights fanatics. In the 90's I declined an opportunity to overdevelop some property I owned because I thought it was bad for the neighborhood, forsaking what could have been considerable profits. Somehow I survived. Just because I don't think money is the most important thing in life doesn't mean I think it's not important at all.
Yeah, you busted me. I'm the Bead Guy. You win.
of course both sets of kids really prefer the cardboad box in which each toy arrived. parents waste so much money on what they think kids like.
“I value the economic and visual diversity of Ballard, “
Well, if no one's willing to pay for industrial goods to be made at US prices, what are you going to do about it? Force us to buy more expensive US-made products like GM cars?
you need to read The Craftsman
“Land Use Application to subdivide two parcels into eight* parcels of land in an environmentally critical area. Proposed parcel sizes range from 24,764 sq. ft. to 130,638 sq. ft. Existing structures are to remain.”
As I read it, this just says the the existing structures will remain after the two parcels are subdivided into eight. The subdivision is the entire scope of this land use action – the development of the parcels would come later and be covered under separate applications:
“At application, the applicants stated that the purpose of the short subdivision is the future development of five office buildings, each 100,000 sq. ft., on each of five parcels R, S, T, V and X to be located solely within the Industrial General 2 zone. It will be noted on the plat that these buildings are limited to a Floor Area Ratio of 2.5 up to a maximum of 100,000 sq. ft. (the size limit standard in effect for the IG2 zone at the time the application was deemed complete) and subject to compliance with all other development regulations in effect at the time of the proposal.”
I doubt that the five buildings could be crammed into the parking lot. We'll see, at some future date, when and if they start the development. In the meantime, the businesses there will probably be forced out by the uncertainty caused by the lack of a long-term lease.
Why am I kidding myself? Those businesses are as good as gone. Bring on the cubicles!
And what will y0u do when no one is willing to pay for your expensive US-made services?
I buy local to the extent I am able. Not every time; life is full of compromises. But someday Limback Lumber will be gone and Home Depot will be the only place left to buy a 2×4 and I find that a bit depressing.
yours is about the only post that uses ‘I hope’ instead of ‘we.’ that is good. i assume those who think ‘we’ need to build something in particular are shareholders?
of course if we stay true to ballard’s heritage, construction would look like salmon bay charlie’s shack. my guess is most posters would not agree that is good.
What are you talking about? The green space around Adobe gets used all the time when the weather is nice. There's always people eating lunch there, or were when people had jobs.
What will I do? Adapt. I do it all the time. It's what keeps civilization advancing.
So how would you categorize someone who works at a computer, in a cubicle, doing mechanical design for “industry”?
Nothing gets built or fabricated these days unless someone engineers it, drafts it, 3D models it, or writes NC code for it first.
A computer is just like any other tool that allows you to maximize productivity, it is stupid rate someones “meaningfulness” based on what tools they use at work.
BTW I would LOVE it if my company moved to this spot, I could walk to work and have my choice of about 5 coffee shops on the way. Alas, I do agree with several other posters that this project will never happen, and it is just a scheme to maximize the value of the land.
On a final note I think most of the area in question is already just offices for a fishing company. Nothing but lame ol' people and computers….
I'm ready to join the bandwagon, sounds like the right thing to do.
tho, really, I absolutely cannot skate. Curling…maybe…
the green space around adobe – do you mean the city/wsdot owned burke gilman trail or the park under aurora bridge (owned by WSDOT)
the space set aside from adobe is all concrete plaza or the steps just down from PCC – no grass but great place to enjoy lunch
“So how would you categorize someone who works at a computer, in a cubicle, doing mechanical design for “industry”?”
That's not what this is about, people. All I am saying is that too much urban industrial land in this country has been turned over to commercial and industrial uses, diminishing the economic, cultural, visual and social diversity of our neighborhoods. In my opinion, there are plenty of offices, and I don't want to lose more blue collar industry to white collar industry.
The offices and office parks have all of downtown, all of Bellevue, most of Redmond, etc., etc. There is very little industrial land within the Seattle city limits other than in Ballard and Georgetown. Would it hurt so much to let it stay industrial? Do we really want yet another office park?
If you want to take personal offense at this, that is your prerogative. That is not the way it is intended. I'm just saying that I, personally, don't want all the blue collar jobs to leave Ballard, Seattle, Washington, or the United States, but that is where actions like this are taking us. If you think that makes for a better community, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't happen to agree.
By the way, the buildings in question house more than just offices for a fishing company. I know a fair number of people who live and work on that particular parcel of land, and there's not a cubicle dweller among them.
“just a scheme to maximize the value of the land.” Yep, sure sounds innocent enough to me. The developers have been taking real good care of Ballard lately, yes indeed.
Every day while looking for a job (yes, I am one of the army of unemployed) I search the keyword “Ballard” just for grins, and all I find is barista, retail, and line cook jobs. Thirty years ago we had Fentron,MARCO and Honeywell in Ballard. Look further back and MOST people who lived in Ballard actually worked in Ballard; at the mills, shipyards, and all the marine/fishing ancillary industries. Real jobs, that paid real living wages.
I'd support any plan that brings back jobs and industry to Ballard. And as far as the blue collar/white collar dichotomy; if I had a kid in school right now, and they weren't set on a job-oriented college track, I'd urge them to go into the trades, or look at the Maritime Academy. My brother went to college; now he is a ship captain. That profession isn't for dummys; the amount of math alone required is staggering.
In my ideal world, this plot of land would be turned into something akin to the California Maritime Academy; basically an engineering college with a maritime emphasis, making it the best of both worlds, academic and trade. What could be better for our little piece of the world? I went to a lecture recently by the personnel director for Holland America; the cruise industry as well as the commercial industry actually has more need for ship officers than they can get, and the trend is projected to increase in the future.
Whatever happened to the hotel idea?
BTW, will edit for food.
Best of luck in your search Julie, I'd think that anyone would benefit in hiring you. And I agree, we need to embrace and invest in this region's uniqueness and it's diversity. I do believe that Ballard has the opportunity to be ahead of any recovery.
Hear, hear!
No personal offense taken. I just wanted to stick up for my fellow peeps who toil away at computers doing the work that makes modern industry possible.
You and I are in agreement on protecting the waterfront industry in Ballard and around the city. Once land goes to non-industrial use, not only do you never get it back, but it tends to creep into adjacent areas over time. I work in the marine industry so I am hip to the impact that gentrification has on the remaining business that do real work along the ship canal.
The point I was trying to make is that modern manufacturing requires a lot more office space than it used to due to the increase in computer design and engineering.
These are good paying jobs that should be located near the industries they support, and these kind of jobs would be good for the neighborhood. The existing buildings on this site already house these kind of companies (Trident, Elliot Bay Design Group, etc) and it could be good for Ballard if there were more jobs like this in the neighborhood.
Not all “cubicle dwellers” are bad ;-)
Graeme,
You are absolutely right on. I realize the property is not in the Landmark District where design input is required, but I hope that our community can pull together to have some impact on its development.
The action taken only allows the existing property to be broken down into sub-plats. Each of the existing stuctures will end up being one of the Plats.
This clears the way for some additional buildings to be built in the future on some of the vacant Plats, and for the addition of usable square footage to the existing structures. None of which has been applied for at this time.
The key is that it Grand Fathers the ability to have 100,000 sqft. buildings on the Plats instead of the newly enacted 25,000 sqft. limits.
The 2 largest tennants are not going anywhere anytime soon, in fact, both have recently expanded their respective spaces within the complex.
Traffic will suck along Shilshole regardless until the entire stretch from Leary to Market is turned into 2 Lanes in each direction.
As for Parking, (shudder) it too will be miserable unless one of those new Plats can be used to build a multi-level Parking Structure; it could be a Weekend/After Hours Pay Lot and be very helpful for the newly gentrifide Ballard Ave Night Scene, as well as the lively Weekend Markets.